### Conversation with #telepathy at Tue 30 Nov 2010 12:49:47 GMT on KA__@irc.freenode.net (irc)

(12:49:48) The topic for #telepathy is: ICQ trouble? http://is.gd/hmEtM | Visit #empathy on GIMPnet for Empathy-specific discussion | Telepathy Real-time Communications Framework: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org | http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ | http://git.collabora.co.uk/
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(13:17:58) smcv: those who like contact lists: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31997
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(13:22:05) smcv: and relatedly https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31998
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(14:04:34) wjt: hmm. what do we actually have in Gabble that actually needs server support? besides PEP and contact search and contact info.
(14:09:31) cassidy: mucs ?
(14:09:38) cassidy: invisible
(14:09:47) cassidy: proxies
(14:10:06) sjoerd: invisible is a good one
(14:11:22) cassidy: XMPP ping maybe
(14:11:30) cassidy: not sure if we implement this one
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(14:11:48) cassidy: the roster power saving thing
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(14:12:20) wjt: oh yeah, dwd implemented google:queue in M-Link
(14:12:26) wjt: invisible's a good idea. we do implement xmpp ping
(14:18:06) wjt: we don't do the roster versioning thing though
(14:18:10) wjt: maybe we should. how hard could it be.
(14:18:44) wjt: there's not much to test in Ping :)
(14:19:01) sjoerd: I'd like to move to a WockyRoster first tbh, but....
(14:19:13) wjt: cassidy: proxies as in Socks5 bytestream proxies?
(14:19:16) cassidy: yep
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(14:55:26) ptlo: kkszysiu, heya; i seem to remember you were hacking on a im-via-web-using-telepathy stuff? how's that going? i'd be interested in doing something along the same lines
(14:55:46) ptlo: (or similar)
(15:10:05) wjt: huh
(15:10:21) wjt: setting my status on Google Talk seems to take a noticable amount of time since the Shared Status stuff went in
(15:10:43) sjoerd: in gabble or in another location
(15:11:12) sjoerd: Oh, i noticed that our iq request queue somethings fill up and then doesn't seem to get unstuck
(15:11:43) sjoerd: quite noticable of you request user info
(15:12:06) wjt: in Gabble. i didn't even have GMail open
(15:12:23) wjt: invisibleness works on almost all of my accounts now! :D
(15:12:38) sjoerd: i mean does it take gabble a while to send out the presence or gmail to update it to peers
(15:13:35) wjt: MattJ: so about that xep-0186 support? ;-)
(15:14:03) wjt: heh, oh dear
(15:14:22) wjt: i fell out of jdev@ when I went invisible
(15:14:39) sjoerd: buhboh
(15:15:10) wjt: i guess the collabora xmpp server does privacy list-based invisibility, so it's only doing what i asked
(15:16:50) cassidy: wjt, how can you test if you are actually invisible? The account presence is always sync with your real status?
(15:17:26) cassidy: (I like this ghost icon :)
(15:17:28) wjt: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/spec/Account.html#org.freedesktop.Telepathy.Account.CurrentPresence is based on what the CM says it is
(15:17:37) wjt: and that's what shows up in the account dialog
(15:17:46) wjt: what does the ghost look like? I use a different theme.
(15:20:40) cassidy: wjt, http://people.collabora.co.uk/~cassidy/status.jpg
(15:22:31) wjt: haha
(15:22:39) wjt: that's the only good icon in that set
(15:22:51) cassidy: totally
(15:28:05) jonnylamb: pessi: Hi, I fixed some bugs in ring: http://git.collabora.co.uk/?p=user/jonny/telepathy-ring.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/trivia
(15:29:09) wjt: no gitorious merge request?
(15:29:27) jonnylamb: no gitorious merge request.
(15:29:42) wjt: no biscuit.
(15:30:44) sjoerd: bha, my register flag is sticky on an account again
(15:30:49) sjoerd: i thought we fixed that...
(15:33:38) MattJ: That's the #2 most common problem I help Empathy users with :)
(15:34:15) jonnylamb: :-/
(15:34:21) jonnylamb: What's number one?
(15:34:26) cassidy: yeah that should have be fixed in MC
(15:34:48) sjoerd: Good that a proper register interface is getting higher on the todo list
(15:35:24) MattJ: jonnylamb: debugging "Network Error" messages
(15:35:35) wjt: \o\ /o/
(15:35:45) jonnylamb: :-(
(15:35:46) MattJ: jonnylamb: which actually covers practically every account or server misconfiguration possible, so...
(15:35:50) sjoerd: that's mostly fixed though
(15:36:00) smcv: ConnectionError gives us extensible signalling
(15:36:09) smcv: not all the CMs actually provide more info yet
(15:36:17) smcv: we're getting there for Gabble
(15:36:18) MattJ: Does Gabble?
(15:36:23) MattJ: Good :)
(15:36:34) smcv: Gabble provides the un-localized debug message in all cases
(15:36:41) wjt: the UI doesn't show it though
(15:36:44) MattJ: Please use <text> from XMPP errors
(15:36:46) smcv: and a maximally good Telepathy error in some
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(15:36:56) MattJ: I know other servers aren't helpful that way, but Prosody is
(15:37:17) smcv: MattJ: aha, I spy a use-case for the hypothetical server-message field
(15:37:25) sjoerd: dear ejabberd, why are you not showing your xep 55 in your disco response
(15:37:31) MattJ: smcv: :)
(15:37:38) smcv: (ConnectionError has a hash table of misc, debug-message is the only universally-provided key)
(15:38:00) wjt: hey
(15:38:09) wjt: you successfully convinced me to conflate the two
(15:38:13) smcv: MattJ: what language is the <text> in btw?
(15:38:22) wjt: if the server provides <text/>, use that; otherwise, use a locally-supplied debug string
(15:38:41) smcv: did I? not sure if I intended to or not, tbh
(15:38:54) MattJ: smcv: In Prosody, always (British!) English currently
(15:38:56) sjoerd: I don't really trust servers to give something more useful then gabble can tbh
(15:38:57) wjt: well, s/you/this channel/
(15:39:06) MattJ: sjoerd: lies
(15:39:22) sjoerd: MattJ: Prosody is usually the exception about being nice
(15:39:26) MattJ: Heh
(15:39:34) smcv: libpurple's localized debug messages aren't quite the same thing as <text/> from the server
(15:39:47) sjoerd: ejabberd isn't even telling me why it's disconnecting some test accounts
(15:39:55) MattJ: There are vague errors like "bad-request" or "not-authorized" where Prosody usually gives more specific information about why the error occured
(15:40:04) smcv: tbh we should probably provide our (libpurple's/wocky's) interpretation, *and* the <text/> from the server in case it's informative
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(15:40:14) sjoerd: nod
(15:40:16) MattJ: smcv: Yes, the specs say you should do that
(15:40:25) MattJ: e.g. not present solely the <text>
(15:40:36) smcv: oh I wasn't suggesting that
(15:40:55) smcv: the primary thing to present is a D-Bus error code which UIs are expected to localize
(15:41:07) smcv: one of whose possible values is the dreaded NetworkError
(15:41:12) MattJ: But please don't do what Psi does and copy the XMPP spec's error text verbatim into the UI...
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(15:43:39) sjoerd: hehe
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(15:44:00) pessi: jonnylamb: please rebase against latest master ... and see if e7470c3ab and f26a5c3298 are still applicable
(15:44:45) sjoerd: wjt: hrm, can you disco remote servers for their jud and does gabble do that if needed or does it rely on the given server being the jud?
(15:45:34) jonnylamb: pessi: Hm, I wonder why my checkout was so out-of-date. Did you just push those patches?
(15:45:43) jonnylamb: pessi: \o/ TpBaseChannel \o/
(15:46:37) wjt: sjoerd: oops. the latter.
(15:46:40) pessi: jonnylamb: I was just waiting for our tester to get rid of oFono bugs ;)
(15:48:57) sjoerd: wjt: we should probably cope with both cases.. i wonder if jud server correctly indicate in a disco response that they're the jud server
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(15:52:40) jonnylamb: pessi: Well you've destroyed my branch with your recent commits!
(15:52:44) jonnylamb: pessi: http://git.collabora.co.uk/?p=user/jonny/telepathy-ring.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/trivia
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(15:58:30) wjt: so. if I were to propose adding a property alongside ValidAccounts and InvalidAccounts, which contains accounts which are not normal IM accounts—maybe they're just signed in for some kind of pubsub system—and thus should not normally be shown to the user, how many people would club me to death?
(15:59:18) wjt: assumptions: such accounts never turn into normal accounts; there would be a separate interface for them on AM; but otherwise they would behave like normal accounts; the Account objects would also have a property on a separate interface to say they're non-user-visible service accounts?
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(16:00:38) wjt: alternative possibly less-beating-worthy proposals include just adding the flag to the account and then modifying tp-{glib,qt4,...} to hide 'em by default
(16:00:53) smcv: wjt: if the account manager manages it, I think it's a valid account like any other
(16:01:32) smcv: if the libraries hide those accounts by default, that's no more compatible than changing the D-Bus API
(16:01:44) smcv: you're just moving the incompatibility into the client libraries
(16:01:46) wjt: but if it's not meant to be used for IM, then IM UIs shouldn't show it
(16:01:59) wjt: yes, that's why i didn't want to put it in the client libraries :)
(16:02:24) wjt: i want to be able to make stealth service accounts exist without modifying literally every existing and future application not to show them
(16:02:57) smcv: wjt: if you want them to be that stealthy, put the new property on a different interface
(16:03:11) smcv: AccountManager.I.AndAlso.SecretNinjaAccounts
(16:03:37) wjt: that's exactly what I just proposed? :)
(16:03:55) smcv: oh right I thought by "alongside" you meant in o.fd.T.AM
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(16:04:07) wjt: nono, i meant on ja.ninja.AccountManager
(16:04:57) smcv: I think that's better than modifying the client libraries
(16:05:24) wjt: but implemented in MC (yeah yeah, adding weird extensions considered harmful, but i also don't want to use the libmissioncontrol-server6 API and subclass shit)
(16:07:01) smcv: oh yeah having weird extensions live in MC where we can keep an eye on them is better than having them in misc subclasses :-)
(16:07:34) smcv: tbh it's not necessarily too niche to have in telepathy-spec
(16:07:41) smcv: it's just too weird to have in the core interface
(16:07:45) wjt: exactly :)
(16:08:09) wjt: ugh. so after empathy crashed and this MUC i'm in respawned, all the scrollback messages turned up in 1-1 channels
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(16:10:13) sjoerd: wjt: yeah that still happens from time to time, although i thought it was fixed :(
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